Sylvie, the first witness called by the prosecution in the case of the U.S. v. Raniere, revealed how she was recruited to become a member of DOS.
The native of England was a member of NXIVM for 13 years – from the time she was 18 until she turned 31.
She quit soon after Frank Report – which was reading at the time – revealed the existence of DOS and the branding of its members with Keith Raniere’s initials.
Sylvie reported that she was “freaked out” when she first read about the brandings – which is understandable – especially since hers was scheduled to take place in just a few days.
During her time with NXIVM, Sylvie rose to the position of Coach with 3 Stripes.
*****
The initial part of her testimony focused on the way in which new recruits were taught all of NXIVM’s rules and rituals.
Then, she went on to describe how she first met Keith – and her impressions of him (He was much shorter than she expected The Vanguard to be – and not nearly as impressive as he had been described to her).
When Sylvie first came to the U.S., she came on a Tourist Visa even though she had, in fact, been hired to work for Clare Bronfman at her horse farm in Duanesburg, NY (They had met through a mutual friend in England).
After her Tourist Visa ran out, Sylvie was able to return on a J-1 Visa that had been arranged for by Clare. That Visa was structured so that she could be trained in horseback riding by Clare.
But when Clare decided to abandon her own riding career, Sylvie was pretty much expected to follow suit.
And so it was that Sylvie moved from England to live with Clare, who “had a room in a house in Clifton Park”. While living with Clare, Sylvie slept on the floor in Clare’s bedroom.
Sylvie returned to England when her J-1 Visa ran out – and eventually started pursuing a career with Goldman Sachs.
At the same time, she also became a dedicated long-distance runner – and joined the Serpentine Running Club in London.
But Clare and Keith wanted Sylvie back in the U.S. – and kept trying to convince her that they could arrange for her to get various types of Visas for her to return (All of the related VISA applications were rejected).
What eventually convinced Sylvie to return to the U.S. was the promise that Keith would take over as her running coach – and prepare her to represent England in the Olympics.
While he was training her, Keith mentioned to her that if the two of them were to ever have a sexual relationship, they would first have to become “really good friends”.
Sylvie indicated, however, that she had no interest in having a sexual relationship with Keith because he was an “authority (figure and an) older man”.
As part of her training regimen, Raniere convinced Sylvie to take the Jness module – where she was first introduced to some of his teachings about the sexual roles of men and women.
“(For) men to be healthy or primitive men, they would have had sex with multiple people and had multiple partners and that was somehow kind of healthier or normal, whereas, women should be loyal to only one man or that’s what’s natural for them and if they go beyond that, it’s more likely to be something spiteful or, in
some way, yes, trying to get back at the man and it’s not the normal thing for them”.
But after taking the Jness module, Sylvie decided that she had taken enough of Raniere’s teachings – and rejected the suggestions of Clare and the now-deceased Pam Cafritz to take the Society Of Protectors modules.
That rejection resulted in Sylvie being required to participate in an Exploration of Meaning (EM) session with Dani Padilla.
But even with the EM session – and additional threats and cajoling from Clare – Sylvie refused to take the SOP modules the first time they were offered.
Eventually, however, Sylvie was convinced to take the SOP training – which she described as being primarily an exercise in humiliating women.
Throughout this time, Sylvie was still getting training instructions from Keith. Most of these instructions involved Sylvie running for as long as she could at a pace of 12 miles per hour.
But regardless of what results she achieved, every one of Sylvie’s training sessions was adjudged to be a failure by Keith (Sylvie had to submit daily reports to him and Clare).
And the cure for those failures was, of course, more EMs.
Sometimes with Dani Padilla – and other times with Karen Unterreiner, Siobahn Hotaling or Lauren Salzman.
Eventually, Sylvie’s body simply broke down from all the 6 hours of training that she was required to do each day – and she ended up with a massive abscess that required surgery.
Despite her doctor’s orders to the contrary, Sylvie continued to follow Keith’s training schedules even while she was recovering from the abscess surgery.
*****
The one good thing that happened for Sylvie as a result of her association with NXIVM is that she met her future husband there.
Both she and John were working on The Knife, Raniere’s concept for spin-free journalism.
Knowing that such a relationship would need to be sanctioned by Keith, Sylvie went to him to tell him about her plan to marry John – and get her “green card” that way.
Although Raniere gave his permission for the marriage, he also told her she and John must have a platonic relationship for the first two years of the marriage.
He also stroked her arm – and told her that it was too bad she was getting married because she and him “could have had fun together”.
When the wedding took place on July 7th in 2015, Clare was there to remind Sylvie that she wasn’t supposed to have sex with her now-husband for at least 2 years.
Unbelievably, she and John agreed not to do so for the first two years of their marriage.
As a kind of consolation prize, Sylvie was invited to become a member of DOS.
The person who invited her was Monica Duran (It was the revelation of Monica’s last name that led Marc Agnifilo to ask for a mistrial in the case).
But, of course, Sylvie first had to provide some “collateral” in order to prove that she was worthy of becoming a member of DOS.
In her case, the collateral turned out to be a letter to her parents in which she admitted she had become a prostitute in the U.S. – and a full-frontal naked picture to go with the letter.
Soon, thereafter, Monica informed Sylvie that she would need to provide additional collateral on a monthly basis – and that each new collateral would need to be stronger than the previous one.
And then – surprise, surprise – Monica gave Sylvie her first assignment.
Which was to seduce Keith Raniere.
In doing so, Monica reminded Sylvie about the collateral she had provided as part of her membership in DOS.
And so, Sylvie set out to seduce Keith.
Which wasn’t very hard to do because Keith provided her with instructions on how to do it.
It started with naked pictures – including some closeup shots of her vagina.
That continued for several months – until her father, with whom she shared an iCloud account, found the photos and asked her about her “medical pictures”.
When she informed Monica and Keith that she would not be sending any more naked pictures, Sylvie was told that her next encounter with Keith would have to be “in person”.
And so it was that the now-married-but-not-having-sex-with-her-husband Sylvie ended up meeting Keith at his house in Clifton Park – probably his sex lair at 8 Hale Court.
And that’s where Keith – after having Sylvie pose for some more naked photos – instructed her to take off her clothes and lie down on her back on his bed.
Saying that she felt she was having an out-of-body experience, Sylvie did as she was told.
“So, I laid back on the bed and he, I guess you’d call it, went down on me.”
Afterward, when she told Keith that despite their sexual encounter, she intended to remain loyal to her husband, John, he replied: “No, your ultimate commitment is to me. I am your grand master”.
In March 2018, Sylvie and her husband, John, decided to move to England. He is still in the process of getting the equivalent of a”green card” to do that.
*****
Tomorrow, we ‘ll have a report on Marc Agnifilo’s cross-examination of Sylvie.
150 commentsOn Sylvie Reveals How DOS Recruited Women – and What a Creep Vanguard Is
“Sometimes with Dani Padilla – and other times with Karen Unterreiner, Siobahn Hotaling or Lauren Salzman.”
“As a kind of consolation prize, Sylvie was invited to become a member of DOS.
The person who invited her was Monica Duran”
So these four women together with Monica Duran are pimps.
They were grooming Sylvie to be a sex slave.
And of these five women only Salzman was indicted.
AUSA Moira Penza stated that almost half of the top members of NXIVM in Clifton Park are criminals.
So, will the Clifton Park crowd like Dawn Morrison and others be charged by NDNY? Or, will they walk away as “cooperating witnesses”?
Weren’t you fully convinced it was Alison who performed oral sex? So to clarify are you still fully convinced that Pea is Nicki Cline?
It’s going to be a bit upsetting that all the fantasies you’ve built up and wrote about over the last year are just the fantasies of an obsessed man…
And again…How many pictures of Alison have you on your computer?
Allison’s initial indictment as CC#1 has her transporting the victim up to Clifton Park and blindfolding the victim..
Moreover the woman who performed the oral sex on the victim was Allison’s slave.
Hence Allison Mack is a co-conspirator in the sexual assault of the victim.
ALLISON MACK IS STILL GUILTY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT SEXUAL ASSAULT.
“Sometimes with Dani Padilla and other times with Karen Unterreiner, Siobahn Hotaling or Lauren Salzman.”
“As a kind of consolation prize, Sylvie was invited to become a member of DOS.
The person who invited her was Monica Duran”
So these four women together with Monica Duran are pimps.
They were grooming Sylvie to be a sex slave.
And of these five women only Salzman was indicted.
AUSA Moira Penza stated that almost half of the top members of NXIVM in Clifton Park are criminals.
So, will the Clifton Park crowd like Dawn Morrison and others be charged by NDNY? Or, will they walk away as “cooperating witnesses”?
Weren’t you fully convinced it was Alison who performed oral sex? So to clarify are you still fully convinced that Pea is Nicki Cline?
It’s going to be a bit upsetting that all the fantasies you’ve built up and wrote about over the last year are just the fantasies of an obsessed man…
And again…How many pictures of Alison have you on your computer?
Allison’s initial indictment as CC#1 has her transporting the victim up to Clifton Park and blindfolding the victim..
Moreover the woman who performed the oral sex on the victim was Allison’s slave.
Hence Allison Mack is a co-conspirator in the sexual assault of the victim.
ALLISON MACK IS STILL GUILTY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT SEXUAL ASSAULT.
camila was a direct slave of KAR, and stop lying is this Frank has not published anything that says camila was allison’s slave.
I advise you to stop with the BS…At this point, it’s trial time and what you do is DEFAMATION PER SE.
First of, the first indictment never said that! It said that she convinced her to live in Clifton.
Second, she never was said to have blindfolded the victim.
The person who performed sex was a FIRST LINE like Allison. The victim is Allison’s slave, that is how far it goes!
Keep trying to pretend she was the leader being everything but the Truth is
She is not the leader and had NO POWER…She was as much as the victim coerced to follow order!
Like it or not.
She is definately not the Creator of DOS nor the branding(like you usually pretend), it was clearly said AGAIN…
She is not a co anything of the sexual assault !
She was never said to be, never charged and this is utter BS you keep making.
I’d like to remind that most of the BS you kept saying about Allison is showing to be false and we are barely the first few days!
And continue with your discriminating lies, and I’ll make sure the right person hear about this.
You will be then guilty of defamation and accusing of criminal behavior (like you do) without proof is a serious crime that could put even send you in jail (depending the seriousness of the accusation)
Seeing how you keep blowing fake info and lies against Allison for WAY too long, you would probably get some time.
BTW, before you go with “constitutional right” like Freedom of speech or press…there is a CLEAR LIMIT !
Even for a slow minded moron like you!
Good luck with defamation. Mack did a great job of defaming herself, she even claimed the cauterizing was her idea. LOL
I think this may be Sultan of Six….. or as I like to think of him….
KKK ( Kristin Kreuk Kidnaper).
KKK don’t you have a Comic Con to go to?
Scott :
You talk without knowing…The defamation per se doesn’t need to be proved by the victim of it.
Read the law! It’s when a 1 digit IQ moron accuse without proof someone with a serious crime.
In this clear case (it’s the case here ,Shadowslow is accusing here of sexual assault and that’s a serious accusation base on NOTHING) , i just have to show what he say and the case is done.
Allison Don’t have to defend herself at all! that’s the beauty of defamation per se.
As for “Mack did a great job of defaming herself, she even claimed the cauterizing was her idea. LOL”
What does that have to do with anything i said ?
First of , the authorities (contrary to some moron who can’t read the interview that was clearly stated as FORCED by the interviewer) know it’s not true!
The first days they clearly said that:
Dos is Raniere’s idea
Dos leader is not Allison (it’s Raniere and Mrs Raniere (i think it’s Camilla))
The branding is Raniere’s idea at 100%
They talked about a video where he is talking about the ceremony and they said (prosecution) that they have message where he talk about how they should have the branding.
Even the Initial that some attribute to Allison are not recognized by authorities …especially now that Monica as said that her initial was part of the branding.
At this point, everything said in the interview is proved to be untrue and confirm the suspicion of those clever enough to READ it properly.
It was a set up against Allison, A way to make her fall but it failed as the proof goes the other way.
But still, it has Nothing to do with what shadow did here! You start to sound stupid again.
Why Don’t you stop posting sometime because you have great insight most of time.
But when you try to play the smartass (and fail) , you discredit yourself.
She showed a lot of courage.
She showed a lot of courage.
Manipulative, creepy, narcissistic? Yes!
Anti-middle class values? Yes!
Criminal? No! Sylvie had the option to always say, No!
“Sylvie had the option to always say, No!”
I know of no women who would tolerate a punk like Raniere telling them not to have sex with their husbands or boyfriends.
I agree. Who would tolerate this?
Since they did tolerate it, one must ask why they tolerated it?
There was an incredible amount of brain rot (loss of a basic moral sense) in the Nxivm community that allowed such violations to occur. A sickness permeated the whole community; one should blame Raniere but one can’t blame just Raniere. The whole group became sick to tolerate this.
And, the Salzmans likely want to continue to practice as unlicensed coaches/psychotherapists after their prison stint!
I know. It’s mind-boggling. But Sylvie was 18 when she got involved with NXIVM through Clare. And now she’s–what, 31..? I think it’s the amount of time she was in it. But it is really hard to understand. And not criminal. I agree. Unless the collateral was what made people do it. Is threatening to release that kind of freely given collateral a crime?
The excuse was sex was a limitation, and that working on the relationship without sex would lead to a stronger bond between them. Isn’t that right Monica??
Mr. Shadow, you missed the point. Telling someone not to have sex is not a crime. You didn’t address this point.
Scott, the point is that most normal people would never become members of a cult like NXIVM in the first place.
How does one explain 400 people trooping up to Silver Bay YMCA to celebrate Raniere’s birthday for a full week in 2016 to sing of His glory?
Raniere’s birthday party should have fitted around a half empty table at an IHOP.
The people who joined NXIVM were to some degree broken in the first place and I’m talking about the True Believers, not the people who took an over priced ESP course.
You still didn’t address the point that telling someone not to have sex is not a crime. You are really good at deflecting, but I’ll catch you every single time. I have a lot of experience with that, there’s a guy named David Steadson who used to do that to me all of the time with Amway.
There were multiple subsets within the layers of NXIVM. Only a small handful have the horror stories to tell. The other 17,000 (and many more who never took a class) were filtered out for the handful to remain. Even most of those of the 400 at the birthday celebration were not aware of what was going on behind the scenes. That’s why the 2017 attendance was much smaller than 2016.
That seemed to me the weakness in the prosecution’s case. However, Sylvie’s testimony made clear that she gave the so-called collateral BEFORE she was told to seduce Raniere. https://nypost.com/2019/05/07/nxivm-slave-gives-jurors-look-inside-alleged-sex-cult/ Thus, she was blackmailed into having sex with him. This fits the legal definition of racketeering.
This is how the racket worked. Women gave up compromising material under false pretenses in the context of a women’s only group. They were then told they had to provide sex. Of course, they could have defied their blackmailers. Just as the victims of a protection racket are “free” to defy the mafia goons “requesting” payoffs.
The government’s case is solid.
Actaeon, well said!
I see your point that giving compromising material made them vulnerable to sexual servitude. It put them in a position where it was extremely difficult to say, no. It stopped becoming a personal growth group where women were advancing themselves by breaking through their barriers and became an abusive sexual fulfillment thing for Raniere’s benefit.
Does knowledge and intent to commit a crime need to be proven? Did Raniere need to understand ahead of time he was committing a crime for the crime to be committed?
True. The governments case is solid. Blackmail IS criminal.
Ok. So it was definite blackmail then.
It has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that RANIERE was blackmailing them, not just his underlings who already plead guilty.
Manipulative, creepy, narcissistic? Yes!
Anti-middle class values? Yes!
Criminal? No! Sylvie had the option to always say, No!
“Sylvie had the option to always say, No!”
I know of no women who would tolerate a punk like Raniere telling them not to have sex with their husbands or boyfriends.
I agree. Who would tolerate this?
Since they did tolerate it, one must ask why they tolerated it?
There was an incredible amount of brain rot (loss of a basic moral sense) in the Nxivm community that allowed such violations to occur. A sickness permeated the whole community; one should blame Raniere but one can’t blame just Raniere. The whole group became sick to tolerate this.
And, the Salzmans likely want to continue to practice as unlicensed coaches/psychotherapists after their prison stint!
I know. It’s mind-boggling. But Sylvie was 18 when she got involved with NXIVM through Clare. And now she’s–what, 31..? I think it’s the amount of time she was in it. But it is really hard to understand. And not criminal. I agree. Unless the collateral was what made people do it. Is threatening to release that kind of freely given collateral a crime?
The excuse was sex was a limitation, and that working on the relationship without sex would lead to a stronger bond between them. Isn’t that right Monica??
Mr. Shadow, you missed the point. Telling someone not to have sex is not a crime. You didn’t address this point.
Scott, the point is that most normal people would never become members of a cult like NXIVM in the first place.
How does one explain 400 people trooping up to Silver Bay YMCA to celebrate Raniere’s birthday for a full week in 2016 to sing of His glory?
Raniere’s birthday party should have fitted around a half empty table at an IHOP.
The people who joined NXIVM were to some degree broken in the first place and I’m talking about the True Believers, not the people who took an over priced ESP course.
You still didn’t address the point that telling someone not to have sex is not a crime. You are really good at deflecting, but I’ll catch you every single time. I have a lot of experience with that, there’s a guy named David Steadson who used to do that to me all of the time with Amway.
There were multiple subsets within the layers of NXIVM. Only a small handful have the horror stories to tell. The other 17,000 (and many more who never took a class) were filtered out for the handful to remain. Even most of those of the 400 at the birthday celebration were not aware of what was going on behind the scenes. That’s why the 2017 attendance was much smaller than 2016.
That seemed to me the weakness in the prosecution’s case. However, Sylvie’s testimony made clear that she gave the so-called collateral BEFORE she was told to seduce Raniere. https://nypost.com/2019/05/07/nxivm-slave-gives-jurors-look-inside-alleged-sex-cult/ Thus, she was blackmailed into having sex with him. This fits the legal definition of racketeering.
This is how the racket worked. Women gave up compromising material under false pretenses in the context of a women’s only group. They were then told they had to provide sex. Of course, they could have defied their blackmailers. Just as the victims of a protection racket are “free” to defy the mafia goons “requesting” payoffs.
The government’s case is solid.
Actaeon, well said!
I see your point that giving compromising material made them vulnerable to sexual servitude. It put them in a position where it was extremely difficult to say, no. It stopped becoming a personal growth group where women were advancing themselves by breaking through their barriers and became an abusive sexual fulfillment thing for Raniere’s benefit.
Does knowledge and intent to commit a crime need to be proven? Did Raniere need to understand ahead of time he was committing a crime for the crime to be committed?
It’s complicated: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea#Model_Penal_Code
True. The governments case is solid. Blackmail IS criminal.
Ok. So it was definite blackmail then.
It has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that RANIERE was blackmailing them, not just his underlings who already plead guilty.
Great point Actaeon
Oh boy! This is getting gloomier than I thought! So John and Sylvie did not have sex for 2 years after being married and this upon KAR’s request. And as a compensatory gift she was invited to DOS where she could get oral sex from KAR. How bizarre of a situation. Mostly because you have all these women that are intertwined to the story. She was invited by Monica to seduce Keith. How did Monica make that OK in her mind to begin with? How does that work? And can all these women ( Ali Mack, Monica, Marianna, Pam etc…and all the rest of us) lose track of is right to that extend? All along while being taught to live IN reality and uphold what is right. This REALLY IS a mind fuck! I feel for Sylvie and honor and admire her courage to be the first witness. Maybe now, people are going to grasp not only the evil of KAR but also spite and awfulness of Clare who “reminded Sylvie on the day of her wedding” NOT to have sex with her husband FOR 2 YEARS!!!!!!
” awfulness of Clare who “reminded Sylvie on the day of her wedding” NOT to have sex with her husband FOR 2 YEARS!!!!!!”
All of the NXIVM women who enabled Raniere are awful.
I think they’re laying out their case very nicely. Bringing in people who you never thought would testify… way lesser characters.
In time, Camilla, “Nicole” (Nicki), Nancy, Allison…
The crazier this story unfolds to the jury and the judge, the more the main insular players will seem complicit. Anyone who plead guilty already to…this… will likely see a reflection of that in their sentencing.
My partner was the same way. Led to believe that working on the relationship without sex was the way to a stronger relationship – all the while getting them ready for Keith’s ‘healing’ blue energy.
–Led to believe that working on the relationship without sex was the way to a stronger relationship
It is if the idea is implemented sincerely between the two people, not as an underhanded scheme to buy some time to manipulate the woman with flying monkeys to ultimately seduce her away from her partner as VanDouche did.
The guy is easy to read.
Yes, these are sick people, all of them.
How did people sign up for this and go along with this? How did people live with themselves for promoting and selling this? I don’t get it.
On the other, is this criminal? Was there an intention to commit a crime? Why did participants continue to go along with this for so long before blowing the whistle on this sick game? Was it because of collateral which induced sexual slavery or forced servitude?
Perhaps, it was a slow degradation of people’s morals that allowed this to occur? Perhaps, it is not that much different from any human tragedy that occurs where people don’t speak up and defend each other.
There is something called Group Think that can happen even among better educated people.
Groups get together and no one wants to stand out so everyone agrees.
Anyone who stands out as an individual gets hammered down.
Thinking for one’s self is punished.
With NXIVM having so many people with weak wills and low self-esteem, it is easy to see how twisted ideas can come to the forefront.
group·think
the practice of thinking or making decisions as a group in a way that discourages creativity or individual responsibility.
“there’s always a danger of groupthink when two leaders are so alike”
Oh boy! This is getting gloomier than I thought! So John and Sylvie did not have sex for 2 years after being married and this upon KAR’s request. And as a compensatory gift she was invited to DOS where she could get oral sex from KAR. How bizarre of a situation. Mostly because you have all these women that are intertwined to the story. She was invited by Monica to seduce Keith. How did Monica make that OK in her mind to begin with? How does that work? And can all these women ( Ali Mack, Monica, Marianna, Pam etc…and all the rest of us) lose track of is right to that extend? All along while being taught to live IN reality and uphold what is right. This REALLY IS a mind fuck! I feel for Sylvie and honor and admire her courage to be the first witness. Maybe now, people are going to grasp not only the evil of KAR but also spite and awfulness of Clare who “reminded Sylvie on the day of her wedding” NOT to have sex with her husband FOR 2 YEARS!!!!!!
” awfulness of Clare who “reminded Sylvie on the day of her wedding” NOT to have sex with her husband FOR 2 YEARS!!!!!!”
All of the NXIVM women who enabled Raniere are awful.
I think they’re laying out their case very nicely. Bringing in people who you never thought would testify… way lesser characters.
In time, Camilla, “Nicole” (Nicki), Nancy, Allison…
The crazier this story unfolds to the jury and the judge, the more the main insular players will seem complicit. Anyone who plead guilty already to…this… will likely see a reflection of that in their sentencing.
My partner was the same way. Led to believe that working on the relationship without sex was the way to a stronger relationship – all the while getting them ready for Keith’s ‘healing’ blue energy.
–Led to believe that working on the relationship without sex was the way to a stronger relationship
It is if the idea is implemented sincerely between the two people, not as an underhanded scheme to buy some time to manipulate the woman with flying monkeys to ultimately seduce her away from her partner as VanDouche did.
The guy is easy to read.
Yes, these are sick people, all of them.
How did people sign up for this and go along with this? How did people live with themselves for promoting and selling this? I don’t get it.
On the other, is this criminal? Was there an intention to commit a crime? Why did participants continue to go along with this for so long before blowing the whistle on this sick game? Was it because of collateral which induced sexual slavery or forced servitude?
Perhaps, it was a slow degradation of people’s morals that allowed this to occur? Perhaps, it is not that much different from any human tragedy that occurs where people don’t speak up and defend each other.
There is something called Group Think that can happen even among better educated people.
Groups get together and no one wants to stand out so everyone agrees.
Anyone who stands out as an individual gets hammered down.
Thinking for one’s self is punished.
With NXIVM having so many people with weak wills and low self-esteem, it is easy to see how twisted ideas can come to the forefront.
group·think
the practice of thinking or making decisions as a group in a way that discourages creativity or individual responsibility.
“there’s always a danger of groupthink when two leaders are so alike”
Good questions – though I think it’s clear that at least some of it was blatantly criminal, as co-defendants have pleaded guilty to, though in Raniere’s case some more subtle transgressions are at issue.
If everyone in Raniere’s inner circle had been under 17 or over 71, I think it would be clearly seen that he selected vulnerable populations susceptible to undue influence by someone with a strong will and asserting a position of authority, and that what he did constituted child abuse or elder abuse. Also, if he’d been a licensed educator or counselor, it would have been professional misconduct, and criminal abuse of a position of authority.
She could have been asked if she found NXIVM to be positive initially. There may even be texts or emails in discovery material that say that.
It could have been emphasized that no collateral was released when Sylvie disobeyed her masters order to send Raniere more pornographic selfies. She was free to stop seducing him. So if she continued it was her own free choice.
She could have been asked if she was compelled in any way to train to the point of injury. So it was her own choice to do that.
Is Agnifilo just phoning it in ?
We’ll be reporting on Marc Agnifilo’s cross-examination of Sylvie tomorrow.
“So no cross-examination of Sylvie ?”
The cross examination is today. That wasn’t it for Sylvie and this trial.
And fyi, when Sylvie begged not to send more pictures b/c her father discovered them, she was told by her master- ok, but then your next encounter must happen in PERSON. And she obeyed. True, she didn’t have to obey, but they didn’t say. Ok, that’s fine, you don’t have to send pictures. Keith just upped the anty. She was not “free to stop seducing him”. Just free to stop sending pictures of her own. But that just led her to Keith’s stink ass sheets and fart filled lair. Read it again.
She could have been asked if she found NXIVM to be positive initially. There may even be texts or emails in discovery material that say that.
It could have been emphasized that no collateral was released when Sylvie disobeyed her masters order to send Raniere more pornographic selfies. She was free to stop seducing him. So if she continued it was her own free choice.
She could have been asked if she was compelled in any way to train to the point of injury. So it was her own choice to do that.
Is Agnifilo just phoning it in ?
We’ll be reporting on Marc Agnifilo’s cross-examination of Sylvie tomorrow.
“So no cross-examination of Sylvie ?”
The cross examination is today. That wasn’t it for Sylvie and this trial.
And fyi, when Sylvie begged not to send more pictures b/c her father discovered them, she was told by her master- ok, but then your next encounter must happen in PERSON. And she obeyed. True, she didn’t have to obey, but they didn’t say. Ok, that’s fine, you don’t have to send pictures. Keith just upped the anty. She was not “free to stop seducing him”. Just free to stop sending pictures of her own. But that just led her to Keith’s stink ass sheets and fart filled lair. Read it again.
—Sylvie described SOP as being primarily an exercise in humiliating women—
I wonder how this “humiliating women” tech would be used on the female partners of SOP members. Would SOP-men like Mark Hildreth apply his humiliating techniques to his Kristin?
—Sylvie described SOP as being primarily an exercise in humiliating women—
I wonder how this “humiliating women” tech would be used on the female partners of SOP members. Would SOP-men like Mark Hildreth apply his humiliating techniques to his Kristin?
No mames!! Este bato es un asqueroso!!!!
Si’ lo es.
Pero hay que entender, que la gente que lo seguía esta mas enferma ya que le hacían todo el preámbulo de que Keithe es el gran gurú, y ellas aun con las vejaciones físicas y mentales no se daban cuenta. No se quien este mas dañado” the leader o the followers!! No hay líder sin seguidores!!
No mames!! Este bato es un asqueroso!!!!
Si’ lo es.
Pero hay que entender, que la gente que lo seguía esta mas enferma ya que le hacían todo el preámbulo de que Keithe es el gran gurú, y ellas aun con las vejaciones físicas y mentales no se daban cuenta. No se quien este mas dañado” the leader o the followers!! No hay líder sin seguidores!!
Creepy doesn’t really cover it.
Creepy doesn’t really cover it.
Raniere’s teachings about the sexual roles of men and women are, unsurprisingly, not original with him.
They are a perverted version of evolutionary psychology’s theory of parental costs and derive from Darwin’s theory of sexual selection. Simply, female mammals bear the cost of pregnancy and birth and the males do not.
The fundamental urge to procreate and spread one’s DNA biases men to mate with multiple females because sperm costs little. To a perv like Raniere, this provides a (specious) argument that it’s natural for men to be swingers and natural for women to be monogamous.
Only a fool would find this argument persuasive, let alone profound, but of course, Raniere was surrounded by willing fools.
It is not peak wisdom to be a slave to one’s primitive urges; we are not chipmunks in the woods, after all.
Simple human decency tells us that it’s not okay for men to screw everything in sight, regardless of what our DNA wants. Raniere fancies himself a philosopher; there is actually a specific term in that discipline for this specious argument. It is called the naturalistic fallacy, the argument that whatever is natural is good.
Raniere was not only a charlatan, he wasn’t even a particularly competent one. How he was able to fool any adult with normal IQ puzzles me.
Raniere’s teachings about the sexual roles of men and women are, unsurprisingly, not original with him.
They are a perverted version of evolutionary psychology’s theory of parental costs and derive from Darwin’s theory of sexual selection. Simply, female mammals bear the cost of pregnancy and birth and the males do not.
The fundamental urge to procreate and spread one’s DNA biases men to mate with multiple females because sperm costs little. To a perv like Raniere, this provides a (specious) argument that it’s natural for men to be swingers and natural for women to be monogamous.
Only a fool would find this argument persuasive, let alone profound, but of course, Raniere was surrounded by willing fools.
It is not peak wisdom to be a slave to one’s primitive urges; we are not chipmunks in the woods, after all.
Simple human decency tells us that it’s not okay for men to screw everything in sight, regardless of what our DNA wants. Raniere fancies himself a philosopher; there is actually a specific term in that discipline for this specious argument. It is called the naturalistic fallacy, the argument that whatever is natural is good.
Raniere was not only a charlatan, he wasn’t even a particularly competent one. How he was able to fool any adult with normal IQ puzzles me.
I find it interesting that Raniere was promotin archaic, or religiously and socially conservative and traditional, ideas of gender roles. The inner circle of NXIVM had more functional similarities with fundamentalist groups like the FLDS,
I think, that like many human behaviors as well as our susceptibilities to psychological mechanisms like cognitive biases (which overlap with logical fallacies), those sexual roles developed when humans lived in hunter-gatherer tribes and had short life spans, and that no longer serve well in modern society, even if for instance that leaves us struggling to maintain more ideal monogamous relationships. I’ve known some people who dabbled in polyamory, and it seemed always to be messy, which I understand is typical; and polygamous communities like the FLDS seem to have a strong tendency to devolve into dysfunction and perversion.
Raniere obviously had a certain charisma in person; and he was able to winnow a small core of followers susceptible to his sway, out of the tens of thousands of people who did NXIVM’s programs. It’s characteristic of high control groups or cults that their leaders or gurus have a presence and sway that is not necessarily obvious to outside observers, and that they churn through a lot of members in the process of selecting and cultivating a diehard following. I suspect that certain groups in particularly that use suggestive or hypnotic techniques, tend to select for those people who are more easily hypnotized; while it’s well documented that some people are more susceptible to hypnosis than others, I’m not aware of any researching proving that is specifically exploited in some cases.
It’s interesting most of the women who joined are of an age and kind where their core values would be the opposite – believing more in equality of men and women so even more of a difficulty for him to make all this work (than say if you were convincing a girl born into the FLDS where women obey men to do all this kind of thing).
I hallucinate! Never in life Clare Bronfman would have benefited from a plea guilt, she is at best as guilty as the tadpole glasses. Shame on US Justice !
I hallucinate! Never in life Clare Bronfman would have benefited from a plea guilt, she is at best as guilty as the tadpole glasses. Shame on US Justice !
I was involved in the Albany Running Community for a long time. I watched the now deceased Pam Cafritz humiliate herself when she participated in the Freihofer’s run for women by lining up with the elites and blasting off the start line ahead of them only to be swallowed up by the pack. I and many others also heard her stories of training to be an Olympic miler and her false claims of winning the open Elite division of the 5th Avenue Mile in NYC.
Keith forcing Sylvie (who actually has more talent in her feet than Pam ever did) to run 12 miles an hour pace which equates to 5 minute miles is beyond comprehension and proves he has no concept of what makes a good coach or how to get humans to reach their potential as a human or athlete for that matter. The women’s world record for the half marathon is currently 64.51 for 13.1 miles. If Sylvie were able to keep 5 minute mile pace up it would equate to almost a world record of 65:33! I don’t think Sylvie even got close to be able to maintain 5 minute mile pace for 5k. I found a Freihofers time for her of 17:58 and a couple in the mid 18’s.
I honestly think that the depravity that Keith is capable of is far worse than what we are going to hear about from any of his victims.and he needs to be put away for life. Turning “virgin” Camila into a sexual predator herself probably is just scratching the surface. Someone mentioned Keith using a pseudonym of Queef. On the lost remarks of the SID blog it was rumoured Keith used that name when he visited underground sex clubs in the Capital District.
I have seen other “coaches” convince runners that show modest to above average talent, like a Sylvie, that they should train for the olympics, and basically hoodwink them into a private coaching monthly payment plan. There are many coaches out there grossly exaggerating and boosting the egos of vulnerable people. It’s really quite startling to see how easy it is to lock on to these type of people. No college background in the sport, the immediate success and having a huge improvement curve because they are new to the sport with no serious training background. 18 minute 5k for female is darn good, but only top 5 on the best local high schools teams. And why use a coach with no experience in the sport.
How did she expect to get work with Goldman Sachs with no college? Or did she attend? Seems strange she only had the one sexual encounter with Keith over the 13 years, but even if she was more deeply involved with him, I guess why bother admitting that anyway? She’s broken away and just needs to expose the important facts. Hope she finds future success.
I was involved in the Albany Running Community for a long time. I watched the now deceased Pam Cafritz humiliate herself when she participated in the Freihofer’s run for women by lining up with the elites and blasting off the start line ahead of them only to be swallowed up by the pack. I and many others also heard her stories of training to be an Olympic miler and her false claims of winning the open Elite division of the 5th Avenue Mile in NYC.
Keith forcing Sylvie (who actually has more talent in her feet than Pam ever did) to run 12 miles an hour pace which equates to 5 minute miles is beyond comprehension and proves he has no concept of what makes a good coach or how to get humans to reach their potential as a human or athlete for that matter. The women’s world record for the half marathon is currently 64.51 for 13.1 miles. If Sylvie were able to keep 5 minute mile pace up it would equate to almost a world record of 65:33! I don’t think Sylvie even got close to be able to maintain 5 minute mile pace for 5k. I found a Freihofers time for her of 17:58 and a couple in the mid 18’s.
I honestly think that the depravity that Keith is capable of is far worse than what we are going to hear about from any of his victims.and he needs to be put away for life. Turning “virgin” Camila into a sexual predator herself probably is just scratching the surface. Someone mentioned Keith using a pseudonym of Queef. On the lost remarks of the SID blog it was rumoured Keith used that name when he visited underground sex clubs in the Capital District.
I have seen other “coaches” convince runners that show modest to above average talent, like a Sylvie, that they should train for the olympics, and basically hoodwink them into a private coaching monthly payment plan. There are many coaches out there grossly exaggerating and boosting the egos of vulnerable people. It’s really quite startling to see how easy it is to lock on to these type of people. No college background in the sport, the immediate success and having a huge improvement curve because they are new to the sport with no serious training background. 18 minute 5k for female is darn good, but only top 5 on the best local high schools teams. And why use a coach with no experience in the sport.
How did she expect to get work with Goldman Sachs with no college? Or did she attend? Seems strange she only had the one sexual encounter with Keith over the 13 years, but even if she was more deeply involved with him, I guess why bother admitting that anyway? She’s broken away and just needs to expose the important facts. Hope she finds future success.
Thanks for the insider insight about that aspect.
I’m curious, as I’ve noticed that quite a number of NXians were into competitive sports, do you have a sense of whether an unusually high number of them were competitors?
The inner circle around Albany seems to have ended up as strangely winnowed group tending towards certain body and personality types, and apparently, as in the case of Sylvie and at least some of the other women, a previous history with, and a propensity for, anorexia. I suspect that the trial, and perhaps some expert testimony, will reveal that the anorexia is just the tip of the iceberg of particular psychological vulnerabilities that Raniere exploited – predators typically select victims who the determine they can best control.
The competitive sports angle is because of Raniere’s frustration with his own physical inadequacies.
I saw that Mark Vicente took the stand late this afternoon. Doesn’t sound like it got very far before recess for the day.
I saw that Mark Vicente took the stand late this afternoon. Doesn’t sound like it got very far before recess for the day.
Thanks as always for the reporting and analysis.
Village Diane has provided a sort of rough transcript over at Tony Ortega’s Underground Bunker, which has a lot of interesting detail that illuminates the process of recruiting and then gradual implementation of behavioral control.
One thing that struck me, is that Sylvie testified that she had a prior history of anorexia, which seems to be a common theme in the NXIVM inner circle – Allison Mack said early on in her blog that regulating food provided her something she could control, which is a classic statement of eating disorders. Typical for a predator, Raniere seems to have looked for women who had certain types of personalities with weaknesses that he knew how to exploit, as well as those who fit a certain body type he apparently fetishized.
While just about anyone is vulnerable to a sophisticated con or even the lure of an unhealthy group, in the case of NXIVM it was probably a particular type of woman that got sucked in. I don’t think it’s clear yet precisely what sort of vulnerabilities Raniere exploited, and how, but I’m hoping that there will be testimony from psychology and cult experts that will explain it for us, ideally with specific knowledge about some of those involved.
I think the DOJ is going to stay focused on crimes, not psycho-babble and things that are not illegal, such as cults.
men who like women who are so skinny they dont look like women is cuz they look more like children hmmmm
Thanks as always for the reporting and analysis.
Village Diane has provided a sort of rough transcript over at Tony Ortega’s Underground Bunker, which has a lot of interesting detail that illuminates the process of recruiting and then gradual implementation of behavioral control.
One thing that struck me, is that Sylvie testified that she had a prior history of anorexia, which seems to be a common theme in the NXIVM inner circle – Allison Mack said early on in her blog that regulating food provided her something she could control, which is a classic statement of eating disorders. Typical for a predator, Raniere seems to have looked for women who had certain types of personalities with weaknesses that he knew how to exploit, as well as those who fit a certain body type he apparently fetishized.
While just about anyone is vulnerable to a sophisticated con or even the lure of an unhealthy group, in the case of NXIVM it was probably a particular type of woman that got sucked in. I don’t think it’s clear yet precisely what sort of vulnerabilities Raniere exploited, and how, but I’m hoping that there will be testimony from psychology and cult experts that will explain it for us, ideally with specific knowledge about some of those involved.
I think the DOJ is going to stay focused on crimes, not psycho-babble and things that are not illegal, such as cults.
To some extent, like in Sylvie’s example, they have to make a case for undue influence, since, as the saying goes, no one was holding a gun to her head. That may require a psychological explanation for the jury to understand, particularly since Raniere was using fairly sophisticated modern influence techniques, and a slow and rather subtle approach that fits the analogy of the frog in the pot of water brought to boil; but that need not necessarily be “psycho-babble.”
Aren’t juries often asked to evaluate state of mind, when it comes to defendants? When that applies to victims, isn’t psychology then applicable?
From Cornell wex:
“Undue influence
In contract law, a defense that can be used by a party to argue against the formation of a binding contract between two parties. The use of undue influence by one party over another puts the free will of one of the parties entering the contract into question, and therefore leads to the contract being unenforceable and voidable by the victim party. To prove undue influence, a party must show that one party to the contract is a person with weaknesses which make him likely to be affected by such persuasion, and that the party exercising the persuasion is someone in a special relationship with the victim that makes the victim especially susceptible to such persuasion.”
men who like women who are so skinny they dont look like women is cuz they look more like children hmmmm