Cross Exam Yesterday: Agnifilo Tries to Paint Raniere as Saintly, Vicente as Deceptive; Vicente Fights Back

In Featured, News, NXIVM

By Dianne Lipson

Not much new ground was broken yesterday afternoon as it was devoted to the cross examination of Marc Vicente by Marc Agnifilo.

This is a slow and tedious process.

Agnfiilo was trying to paint Keith in the best light and impeach Vicente.  Vicente held up pretty well. .

Agnifilo questioned Vicente on matters he already testified about.

Vicente elaborated on the Nxivm 9 – that they left in 2009, causing changes to Nxivm’s executive board

Vicente testified how the Nxivm 9 – led by Barbara Bouchey and Susan Dones we’re asking for money they said was owed to them and Vicente and others were told this was an extortion attempt.

Vicente was questioned about a letter he sent to the Saratoga County DA seeking Bouchey’s prosecution for extortion.

in the letter, Vicente wrote that Bouchey damaged the company and his ability to enroll people.

Vicente read the letter to himself to refresh his memory about what he had written.

Vicente was asked if he signed the letter. He said he did, but could not recall if he personally sent it or handed it to somebody else to send.

Agnifilo was more aggressive than I’d seen him so far.

He asked [paraphrasing] “You wrote a letter to the DA Saratoga County?  How old were you then?”

Vicente said he was 45 years old.

I thought Agnifilo was trying to show that Vicente was at a time of his life when he was perfectly capable of understanding what he was doing.

The letter said that Vicente was prevented from enrolling people and that he lost hundreds of thousands of dollars because of Bouchey.

Vicente said he’s not sure if he meant he lost potential or actual dollars.

Agnifilo pressed him hard along the lines of whether Bouchey had actually committed extortion.

Vicente answered he wasn’t sure of the facts..

Agnifilo asked, “Wouldn’t you want to be clear about the facts?”

Vicente said “I believed what I was told. I don’t remember whether I had the facts in front of me or if I was told.”

Agnifilo asked Vicente, who had written in the letter that John Tighe [former anti-Nxivm blogger] had committed character assassination, if he believed it were true.

Vicente “I think I thought so at the time.”

He was asked about the composition of the letter itself and whether he wrote it or not.

He could not recall with certitude.  He said, “to the best of my recollection it was a group drafting process with Kristin, Lauren and maybe Nancy.”

Often, when Agnifilo would ask a question, Vicente would say, “It’s more complex than that.”

Agnifilo would say, for instance, “You were very involved” or something like that and Vicente would answer, “it’s more complex than that.”

Vicente said he had concerns about how Nxivm was run but was still loyal to Raniere.  He was sent to do damage control in Tacoma after the Nxivm 9 left.  The Tacoma center was in danger of closing [and did close] because one of the Nxivm 9 – Susan Dones – had formerly run that center and was leaving Nxivm.

Vicente was questioned about Fiji. He admitted he took trips to Fiji.  Agnifilo was able to elicit that Vicente went willingly and took photos and videos there.

Vicente admitted he didn’t have to pay for accommodations; his only cost was food.

Agnifilo suggested Vicente enjoyed Fiji and had a great time on the beaches etc..

Vicente said, “I never said I had a bad time.”

Agniflo tried to introduce a better spin on Raniere – as a noble fighter for justice.

He played a video of Raniere speaking to SOP founders. I believe this was filmed in October 2012.

Raniere says [paraphrasing] ‘The stronger your commitment, the more powerful you are,” and that “commitment is a virtue.”

“This is a life commitment. Many years from now we’re all going to be here together.”

And that “We’re creating an order that will have tremendous power. We have to wield that power with noble virtue. This is the inner circle, you are the founding fathers.”

Raniere repeatedly says commitment is powerful, that commitment is power.

Keith said that having commitment run so deep, the deeper you have, the deeper, the stronger, the better.

Keith said “The more commitment I have, the deeper the stronger, the better, the more alive I feel.”

The SOP men were told by Raniere that they should become a force in the world by recruiting others who would commit as well, and they would influence politics and be a force for good.

There was some discussion about collateral and since there were wealthy people in Nxivm, it was no big deal if they lost a little money. Raniere taught that collateral has to be big. It has to be $100,000 not $10, because $10 would show that you did not think it was important not to violate your word.

Vicente explained Raniere taught that massive collateral was irrelevant if you have an enormous  desire for commitment. In that case any amount of collateral doesn’t matter.

Vicente admitted he was not worried about himself regarding collateral. He had no worries about anything of his being released.

It was also elicited that The Society of Protectors devised a method to try to get women to understand what it was like being a man.

There was a game that was played where the women had M&Ms and they had to try to get the men to take all their M&M’s without telling them that that is what they wanted. If they couldn’t get the men to take them, there was pushups as punishment, but the men didn’t know what the point of this game was. They didn’t know that they were supposed to take all the M&Ms.

When the women were trying to get men to take the M&Ms, this became very emotional. People were crying, both men and women were crying.

Agnifilo asked about why it was getting so emotional.

Vicente said it’s the nature of human potential courses or groups that there’s a lot of emotion.

The day prior Vicente had testified that there was an SOP gathering that nearly 100 people had paid and signed up for and Keith canceled because they were supposed to enroll 100 men and they fell shy by one or two people.

Agniifilo asked if Vicente remembered if Keith offered to refund these men’s money.

Vicente said he didn’t remember

The got into the altered videos in the Ross case.  Vicente said he had no specific recollection that these videos would be turned over in a lawsuit. He said Kristin Keeffe told him about it later.

Agnifilo pressed Vicente on his meetings with the FBI.

The purport of this questioning seemed to be to characterize Vicente as guilty of crimes and that he had not been forthcoming with the FBI about his own criminal activity.

[This seems to be along the lines that everyone was a criminal except innocent Raniere – who knew little of what all the bad followers were doing]

Vicente stood up to this line of cross examination, saying he could not recall every specific of every  meeting.  He said “There’s 12 years of material in my brain and it’s not organized very well.”

And “I don’t have perfect recall.”

There were certain emails that Vicente gave the FBI and Agnifilo accused Vicente of not giving up all the emails.  Agnifilo was trying to make it look like Vicente was saying things in a certain way as so to not incriminate himself.

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40 commentsOn Cross Exam Yesterday: Agnifilo Tries to Paint Raniere as Saintly, Vicente as Deceptive; Vicente Fights Back

  • Raniere is a cunt.

    The piece of shit lawyer is a scumbag little worm.

    Mark Vicente is a hypocrite trying to save his own ass.

  • Has anyone gotten emotional over M&Ms- Not me, not even the green ones.

  • Agnifilo needs to eat shit. He’s a worm. A well paid worm. He knows deep down that Keith is a fraud, a con man, and extremely perverted. And he knows Keith knew he was breaking the law over and over again. He is guilty on all counts he is on trial for. Agnifilo knows it. And I know it’s his “job” to defend Raniere, but Keith is so evil, there shouldn’t be an attorney on planet earth willing to defend him. So it’s about the money. Agnifilo’s moral compass is swayed by money. That’s it.

  • Unfortunately, I have to agree with Agnifilo. Mark Vicente is also guilty. He knew all the twisted things happening in NXIVM and he just didn’t hear and help Raniere to commit. Barbara Bouchey was one example, but several people confronted about his stupid idea of NXIVM. But this situation happened not only in 2017, it happened before also. Obviously, Raniere is guilty of every crime committed, but the way the trial is going, I cannot see yet any real crime committed by Raniere. Vicente has told the ideas Raniere had about women. That’s not a crime. The video showed, it’s offensive, but it is not a crime. The indoctrination is not a crime. The brands… Sarah accepted them long time before Vicente told her to get away. It is terrible to say this, because Raniere can be declared not guilty. Except of course, because Camila was a 15 year-old girl at the time the photos were taken. That fact and be a turning point, but the prosecution seems to be weak in facts and proofs. Finally, Vicente seemed weak in answering. Maybe the jury is not quite convinced of Vicente’s arguments and the prosecution may see problems in Vicente’s declaration.

    • It appears the concept of racketeering and racketeering conspiracy has gone over your head.

    • That’s why this is a RICO conspiracy trial. Those at the top often try to protect themselves by not getting their hands dirty, and trying appear not to actually have a formal role in the organizations involved, and the point of the law and the way it is being prosecuted is to bring to account those who orchestrated things.

      Plus, I think that once the prosecution is done painting the broad picture for the jury, they will drill down to some crimes that can be directly tied to Raniere. He was obviously not a complete mastermind on top of every detail, because he left behind the child pornography.

    • It’s been said (by Actaeon, I think), and I think it sounds right, that the collateral is considered blackmail. The only way he got women to go along with the branding and got them stuck in DOS, and subject them to bad oral sex, was the collateral. And that’s illegal. So was the altering of the video tapes for the Ross case, and the child porn and rape. They’re just getting started.
      I think the prosecution is definitely trying to disprove Agnifilo’s “good faith/good intent” claims.

  • I sincerely hope the jury members can see the truth in all of this. I hope they are cutting through the bs Agnifilo is spouting and seeing Keith for who he really is. T will be so satisfying when they deliver a guilty verdict on all counts. And then the judge, I hope, also sees what Keith is and slams him with 40 + years so he can rot in prison where he belongs. I still think Keith will not go to prison. I really believe he’ll off himself before he gets there.

  • “Agnifilo was trying to make it look like Vicente was saying things in a certain way as so to not incriminate himself.”

    Dianne, do you think Agnifilo was successful at this- You said he held up pretty well. But how well- Just wondering how good Agnifilo is. Mark seems like a pretty steady, reasonable and truthful witness. I’m wondering if that’s how he came off or not.

  • Mark, you’re liar. And a coward. You lost a lot of respect. When you hide behind “I didn’t remember”, or “I don’t have perfect recall”, you embarrassing yourself. Tell the truth, be just.
    I still think Keith must be punished, he is guilty as hell, but your lies make me doubt about you, and your character.

    • How do you know- Maybe he is telling the truth and doesn’t remember and he doesn’t have perfect recall and can’t give the exact details for certain things. People don’t remember everything and can’t remember all the details exactly.

      • Vincente was pretty good at remembering details that made KAR look bad, so all the “I don’t recalls” now lessen his credibility.

        • Uh, he said he couldn’t remember one thing and he couldn’t recall with certitude another. Stop exaggerating.

          I think we all know who the NXIVM trolls are now. They’re all the ones who are trying to discredit Mark.

      • How convenient. Mark Vicente knows he is full of shit. He’s been granted the privilege of immunity for info. He gets to reveal crimes he knew about and enabled without getting punished. I say torture is better. Info + punishment = success!

  • While watching the latest from Amazing Polly on Youtube, I learned about the term “flying monkeys” in the context of a narcissistic abuser. Mr. Vicente rejected this role, though he was goaded on by Mr. Raniere. He had his wife, Bonnie, to think about: her welfare, her comfort, her support. She had left this nightmare but he was still in it. He was supposedly Mr. Raniere’s choice to inherit the mad kingdom. Thankfully, Mr. Vicente trusted his own judgement and rejected this evil, prideful, ridiculously disgusting cult leader/

    • I think Raniere only dangled the possibility of Vicente succeeding him, at a point that Vicente was thinking of leaving, as a tool of manipulation, the same way he told so many different women that they would eventually get to bear his avatar baby if they would just stand by him and wait. Vicente apparently never had even made it far up enough the stripe path to be able to charge for giving EMs in all the time he had been in, so there were probably several people ahead of him in any real line of succession.

      • That was my impression, too, Anony. That and potentially setting Mark up as the psychopath.

        There was palpable tension between KAR and Vicente in that video clip — KAR taking subtle digs at Mark’s (Adrian’s) camera work not to mention his new bride. And already tempting Mark with infidelity, accusing him of a having a wandering lens at his own wedding. Looked like a classic KAR rivalry set-up between Adrian “Fluffy” and Mark, too.

        Wouldn’t be long before the KAR I knew would have tried to convince Mark’s wife that Mark was a-cheatin’ — if not catch one of them in front of the camera in the act for leverage and reinforcement of KAR’s own deeply cynical view of male fidelity and marriage.

        Homewreaking is one of their specialties.

      • Agree AnonyMaker.
        KAR probably said you’re my successor to all the guys…to keep them kissing his ass.
        Vincente believed KAR then, and it seems like he still believe it now. God, KAR really could sell the bullshit.

  • Thanks Village Diane for the fine summary of the days proceedings.

  • Que puto eres Mark Vicente, no te hagas pendejo! Cómo que no te acuerdas- Tú fuiste quién llevo a las dos personas que faltaban en SOP, y tenías cara de regañado cuando salió Keith a decir que se cancelaba. Eres un maricon de mierda.

    • Translated via Google translate
      May 16, 2019 at 5:43 pm
      What the fuck are you, Mark Vicente, do not play stupid! How do you not remember- You were the one who took the two people who were missing in SOP, and you had a scolding face when Keith came out to say it was canceled. You’re a fucking maricon.

      • Maricon means “pansy” in Spanish.

      • Ah, yes, Google Translate. And Alphabet wants us to trust them to put driverless cars on the highway.

        The translation is rough – but so is the original Spanish, full of minor mistakes with accents in the wrong places, leading me to wonder how it was really written, almost like it could have been pieced together from an auto translator to begin with. So I’m not not going to bother to provide a proper translation, but here are a couple of pieces to give more the gist of it:

        Puto in this case is the male form of whore, or rent boy, though in Mexican Spanish it can simply mean faggot.

        “no te hagas pendejo!” is an idiomatic expression more like “don’t be a dick.”

        “maricon de mierda” literally means queer of shit, but in this case it’s an idiomatic use probably more like “shitty bastard.”

        • ” it could have been pieced together from an auto translator to begin with. ”

          In which case it could be written by an American wanting to create the impression that it was written by a Mexican.

  • Raniere says [paraphrasing] ‘The stronger your commitment, the more powerful you are,” and that “commitment is a virtue.”
    “This is a life commitment. Many years from now we’re all going to be here together.”
    And that “We’re creating an order that will have tremendous power. We have to wield that power with noble virtue. This is the inner circle, you are the founding fathers.”
    Raniere repeatedly says commitment is powerful, that commitment is power.

    So NXIVM is about people with low self-esteem and fragile egos on a power trip.
    Since Raniere talks about the Founding Fathers, did he see NXIVM as a potential political movement-
    That is frightening.

    • Yes, Keith had designs of infiltrating the Mexican and Libyan govts, to mention two, via Salinas and Igtet, Sara’s husband.

      Why do you think he was weaponizing women with snuff films via Dr. Brandon Porter- He would inure them to horrific violence and bacchanalian sexual free for alls then utilizing such NXIVM trained women to seduce, infiltrate and probably even assassinate targeted political figures.

  • Mark Vincete news alert!!!

    The Times Union has just posted an article regarding the trial….within the article is some very interesting information regarding Mark Vincete. Apparently Mark had belonged to another cult.

    Interestingly enough the other cult is run by a woman!!!!!

    So maybe it’s not as bad as all the cults that are run by men-!-!-

    Here is the link to the Times Union article:

    Here is a link to the other cult Mark Vincete belonged to:

    • The cults run by women are usually mothers, too, so to speak. As Clare Bronfman and some of the others have shown, women can be more or less as abusive as the men, if a bit less prone to physical brutality.

      Some pretty disturbing things have come out recently about the behavior of J. Z. Knight, who channels “Ramtha,” some of it somewhat similar to Raniere

      It was Rajneesh’s on-site lieutenant Sheela who directed all the dirty deeds, like the biological poisoning of salad bars at local restaurants.

      When Elizabeth Clare Prophet took over the Church Universal and Triumphant after her husband Mark’s death, she took it in an apocalyptic direction that ended up with the group illegally stockpiling weapons.

      South Korean cult leader Pastor Shin Ok-ju was in the news not long ago for beating followers publicly, and human trafficking others as slave labor in Fiji (where Bronfman and Raniere have their island).

      Here are a few others from around the world.

      10 Female Cult Leaders You’ve Never Heard Of

      And as far as Ramtha and Knight, when poking around, I ran across references suggesting more early NXians besides Vicente had been involved in that group. Does anyone know anything more about that-

      • Anon,

        I was being sarcastic. In the future I will label my sarcasm with parentheses. 😉

      • My siblings was in the Rajneesh group and I watced the netflix show on it recently. I have pondered if Sheela there and the women with Nex. were the evil ones doing stuff the great male leaders didn’t know about, sheltering them from the day to day of life etc, deceiving them even. Not always easy to tell. And some leaders will deliberately distance themselves from things as Hubbard did in Scientology at some stages.

    • Extremely old news. He released a movie in 2004 (“What the Bleep Do We Know-“) with three other Ramtha members.

  • The Albany TU report on today’s court proceedings discusses Agnifilo grilling Mark Vicente about him allegedly saying India Oxenberg is a “monster” — an effort to discredit India, too, no doubt.

    I’m here to tell you KAR & Salzman are monster-makers extraordinaire but where intent is concerned, Nx’s modus operendi for decades is to convince their acolytes that the intent or purpose of their criminal doings is an entirely pure and noble one.

    It’s almost as if they knew this day of reckoning might someday come and “intent” would be a consideration. In addition, few would have participated IMO if they knew what KAR & Salzman’s true intentions were for their targets or for themselves.

    I know Gina, my sis, was completely convinced she was helping me escape my marriage to a “cheater” and worse by performing some of the rather monstrous spying and hacking activities she undertook for Nx.

    Gina also had me convinced it was my ex who was doing the spying and gaslighting on me with the help of his Secret Service and/or CIA pals — whom we WERE consulting with on “In the Line of Fire” and “The Recruit.”

    In fact, once while my ex and I were away in Europe, a Secret Service agent consultant on a movie project, Robert Snow, dropped by unanounced to “check on our house” and rolled up on Gina and her friend sunbathing outside topless by the pool. Snow didn’t know they were house sitting. So, when it began to appear our computers were hacked, Snow was at the top of the suspect list.

    Another good friend with connections to the official world of espionage (her husband is a former intelligence agent) kept advising me that were the culprits or culprit true pro’s, neither me nor my ex would have detected these activities. Of course, it all deliteriously affected our marriage.

    After a time, I just wanted out of anything to do with any spy shit including our marriage – movies are one thing, living it is a whole different ball game. Except, I nearly ran straight into Raniere & Salzman’s trap that they had already entangled Gina in but I couldn’t free her from.

    India’s lucky to be alive. So is everyone who’s, so far, survived. These girls need help not punishment.

    Btw, India, next time you and/or your pals track someone — don’t follow them the wrong way down a one-way street or through a bank drive-through where you can’t stop behind to even pretend to transact w/o losing them. Could be your mark caught on and tested you.

  • Interesting tidbit I just noticed about Vicente: he appears to have distanced himself (at least on IMDB, and this week in court, according to a Times Union article) about his involvement in a 2018 documentary called “My Tourette’s”, which was produced by Claire Bronfman and starred NXIVM stars Marc Elliot, Keith Raniere, and Nancy Salzman.

    From the Times Union article dated yesterday, May 16, 2019:

    “Agnifilo asked Vicente if it is true he went to the Green Mountain Film Festival to confront India Oxenberg, who was there to promote a 2018 documentary about Tourette syndrome called, “My Tourette’s” that was produced by NXIVM director of operations Clare Bronfman.

    Vicente said he had been deeply concerned about India Oxenberg because “she was still a true believer” in NXIVM, and was in danger.”

    It seems peculiar that he’s so concerned about India’s involvement in NXIVM considering that–according to his own personal website–he directed the same Tourette Syndrome film that she was going to promote. Here’s a link to the page on Vicente’s website which lists his completed film projects:

    Even stranger, if you go to IMDB, you’ll notice that all traces of Mark’s name are absent from the film’s credits:

    Is he being fully truthful on the stand-

    • Furthermore, in the article, it is demonstrated that the judge tossed out any further discussion about Tourette Syndrome:

      “Agnifilo said Vicente, his wife Bonnie Piesse and a film crew stalked India Oxenberg at a Manhattan restaurant where she worked. The lawyer suggested Vicente was an “agent for the destruction of NXIVM.”

      Vicente countered that the crew was a block away, and that his wife wanted to speak to India Oxenberg out of concern.

      The judge said he was not going to take the issue of curing Tourette syndrome lightly. He barred discussion of it unless the defense brought it up in its case.

      “We’re not going into it,” the judge said. “Tourette is out.”

      Why is “Tourette out”- Is it because we’re not supposed to know that Mark actually worked on the film-“

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